Mormon Polygamy on Trial: Day 13 Media links

Professor Rose McDermott testified regarding the harms associated with polygamy - derived from a world-wide statistical study. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to remove the cultural and economic effects from an analysis like this - especially since Polygamy is most common in under-developed countries.

I did not get to the courtroom today - however from what I have seen in the affidavits, it looks like the reporters have made a good summary. As one of the reports points out - the case so far has been one of dueling expert witnesses. For every witness called to claim that polygamy causes unique harms to women children and society, another expert points out that these claims can also be interpreted from another perspective.

The court is adjourned until January 5. The first expert to appear after the break is a Dr. Walsh - surprizingly an LDS Mormon witness appearing to testify on behalf of the FLDS church. I definitely plan to be there for that day. Additional experts are scheduled for the remainder of that week, including a Dr. Witte who will testify regarding the historical roots of monogamy and a Dr. Davies - a psychologist - who regularly testifies as an opposing expert to Dr. Beall (who testified last week).

Hope you enjoy the media links, and best wishes for a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Females' lives worsen as rate of polygamy increases: Researcher

B.C. polygamy hearings break for holidays - thestar.com

We may not like polygamy, but decriminalization makes sense - The Globe and Mail

Mormon Polygamy on Trial: Day 12 media reports

Also missed day 12 at the courthouse. From what I have read of these news reports, they seem to agree quite well with the affidavit filed by Dr. Todd Shackleford. Of particular interest is the mention that Dr. Henrich actually used data from Shackelford's work and came to different results.

One more AG witness tomorrow and then the Christmas break. Don't think I will make a trip across to the mainland until after the new year.

For anyone interested in details from the various witnesses, the AG is beginning to post transcripts on the google docs site - which was initiated by the Canadian Polyamory Advocacy Association. The transcripts are at the end of the document list (starting around 195) and they seem to be delayed by about a week.

CBC News - British Columbia - Abuse not unique to polygamy, B.C. court told

Professor takes stand at polygamy court hearing

Marriage, Religion and the State : A Mormon history (Part 9)

Discussion: Background context surrounding the origin of Mormon Polygamy

From today’s perspective, it is difficult to imagine the intensity of feeling that drove the 60 year battle between the United States government and the LDS Church over the definition of marriage. In fact, in 21st Century North America, few would deny that marriage appears to be a threatened institution. One out of every two marriages end in divorce and a growing number of people are choosing to live together in common-law relationships rather than formalize their unions through marriage. The LDS church, together with Catholics, protestants and Jews are working together in organizations like the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) to defend traditional marriage through political activism. Recently, NOM claimed a significant political victory in opposition to same-sex marriage during the 2010 mid-term US elections1.

Smaller communities continue to exist within the American mosaic that are based upon alternate models for marriage and relationships. These include members of the Federation for Egalitarian Communities which are founded on principles of non-violence, ecology, a commitment to establish the equality of all people and not to discriminate on the basis of race, class, creed, ethnic origin, age, sex, sexual orientation or gender identity.2 The oldest and most established of these communities, Twin Oaks Ecovillage, explains their policy on relationships as “ Whereas in the mainstream, certain relationship styles tend to be socially and economically rewarded (most notably a man and woman married to each other), at Twin Oaks a much wider range of relationship choices are accepted as normal and are not remarked upon3” These communities typically practice a form of polyamory (more than one lover) or open relationship. These relationships are are not simply Free Love, but in contrast “Open relationships mean more commitment, working on difficult feelings when they come up, and committing to support one lover’s feelings about another.” Perhaps surprisingly, Twin Oaks has a solid tie to Restoration movement.

One of the buildings at Twin Oaks is called Oneida House, after the Oneida Perfectionist community founded by John Humphrey Noyes during 1848 in Madison County, New York4. Like the Latter Day Saints, the Oneida community sought a return to primitive, apostolic Christianity and they held all things in common. Seeing no intrinsic differences between property in persons and property in things, Noyes abolished traditional marriage and instituted a system of polygamy and polyandry known as “complex marriage”.5 Noyes did not conceal his teachings and their practice of complex marriage, even after they were mobbed and driven from their first settlement near Putney, New York during 18476. Notwithstanding their public teaching and practice of an extremely unconventional marriage system, the Oneida community flourished without serious persecution until 1876, when complications arose when John Noyes tried to pass the leadership to his son. By 1880, the community was abandoned through a combination of internal dissension and external pressure.7 John Noyes and his Perfectionist community were preceded by Jacob Cochran and his Society of Free Brethren and Sisters who formed a radical Christian community near Saco, Maine in 18168. Cochran also called for a return to the apostolic church, re-baptized his followers to cleanse them from sectarianism9, denied legal marriage vows, created a system of spiritual wifery and a series of secret rituals10.

From today’s perspective, it is difficult to imagine that these unconventional marriage concepts emerged as part of the Restoration tradition. However, these events must be seen in the context of the Second Great Awakening that swept America in the early 1800s. The revolutionary war brought about a consciousness of freedom from Europe with its traditions, values and the existing social order. This new freedom spawned a strong desire to create a new society. Many people rejected the established churches, seeing them as corrupt agents of the old order.

It is important to remember that the Christian message has always been revolutionary; proclaiming Good News for the poor, freedom for the captive and relief for the oppressed11. In the time of Jesus, He directly confronted social, political and religious discrimination. In return, He was accused of being a drunk, a glutton, a friend of sinners and tax collectors. His female followers, who moved beyond their societal restrictions, were labelled as sinners and harlots12. Jesus’ harshest critics were the leaders of the established religious orders who went so far as to accuse him of being possessed by demons. In return, Jesus charged his critics with hypocrisy, stating “by your own tradition, you nullify the direct commandment of God” and “These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship me, Teaching as doctrines the commandment of men13”. Just prior to his death, Jesus warned his followers that they were no longer “of the world” and because of this, they would be hated and persecuted for being his disciples14. The words of Jesus were fulfilled soon after his death when the apostles were brought before the Sanhedrin and commanded to stop proclaiming His gospel. Peter responded “We ought to obey God rather than men15.”

Jesus’s Kingdom of Heaven signified a movement away from the dominion of rich and powerful rulers who took from the poor and oppressed the weak. Unfortunately, from the time of Constantine, the Christian church became the Imperial Church spreading Rome’s agenda among the European nations. Through the history of Europe’s reformation, the radical Spirit of Christianity broke through as the voice for the poor during times of political uncertainty. However, the reformation churches soon became national churches, the pre-cursor of today’s media, for the protestant states. This left a sense among the peasant classes that the Spirit of Christianity had been overtaken once again to serve the interests of the powerful and maintain the unjust social order. During the early 1500s, Germany and Switzerland saw the birth of the anabaptist movement that rejected the catholic and emerging state churches for a belief in millennialism, adult baptism, a priesthood of all believers and the common ownership of goods. In 1534, radical Anabaptists were able to take control of the city of Muenster, declaring it to be the “New Jerusalem”,where they formed a community of goods and began practicing polygamy16.

A century later, a similar movement took place in England and it rose to prominence during the political instabilities surrounding the English civil war. Seekers, Ranters, Levellers, Shakers, Quakers and Fifth Monarchists rose up to challenge the monarchy, the authority of the Church of England and the injustices of the established social order. These diverse groups shared contempt for professional clergy and adopted many beliefs that echoed the Anabaptists. For many believers, the imminent coming of Christ was not limited to the outside world alone, but Christ was already rising in the hearts of the elect. Once a disciple became conscious of Christ within them, they were no longer bound by law and they could not sin. Traditional marriage was rejected as legalistic and just another man-made convention while free love become a new ideal 17. These perfectionists could lie, steal, commit adultery and still remain sinless.(Hill)

These radical ideals were vibrant and alive in America during the Great Awakening. Shakers, Quakers, Anabaptist and Seekers had come to the new world with its promise of religious freedom. After the revolutionary war, in the Second Great Awakening, many Americans held a strong desire to explore new found freedoms rather than turn political and economic power over to the rising American merchant class and the professional clergy that supported them. Unfortunately for the oppressed, the established American churches, with their passive doctrine of pre-destination that suggested that some were born to be saved and others born to be damned, clearly supported the position of the rising merchant aristocracy and presented a heavenly projection of earthly injustice18. Tremendous excitement surrounded a gospel of liberation, especially for the poor who were on the margins of society. This revolutionary gospel also appealed to women, owing in part to their “socially limited and unexciting lives”19. This religious ferment and popular dissent against the religious establishment of the time contributed to the success of Jacob Cochran’s Society of Free Brethren and Sisters, the Free Will Baptists, the Shakers, the Campbellites, and eventually the Oneida Perfectionists and Mormons.

There is little doubt that Joseph Smith’s family was aware of these radical spiritual movements. In her biography of Joseph Smith, Lucy Mack Smith describes her elder brother Jason as a minister in the Seeker movement20. She also relates that her husband, Joseph Sr., “would not subscribe to any particular system of faith but contended for the ancient order, as established by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and his Apostles21”. There is no way to know the extent that Joseph Smith’s home environment affected him, however it certainly explains why he was not brought up within a specific religion, and his freedom from a consistent, parentally-enforced religious upbringing.

It is reasonable to assume that Joseph’s home background contributed to the “serious reflection and great uneasiness” that he experienced in his deliberation about which church he should join in his teenage years22. These deep uncertainties ultimately led Joseph to his ‘sacred grove” experience, where he was assured him that he should not join any of the existing churches. In his later recollections, Joseph recalled that the Lord told him that “their creeds were an abomination”, and “they draw near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.23”. These statements, which echo the words spoken by Jesus to the established religious leaders of His time, are a clear rejection of the standing churches that helped enforce the power and economic structures of Joseph’s day.

1 http://www.nationformarriage.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=omL2KeN0LzH&b=5075187&ct=8716865&notoc=1 accessed Nov, 2010

2 The 7 Principles of the Federation of Egalitarian Communities
Each of the FEC communities:
1. Holds its land, labor, income and other resources in common.
2. Assumes responsibility for the needs of its members, receiving the products of their labor and distributing these and all other goods equally, or according to need.
3. Practices non-violence.
4. Uses a form of decision making in which members have an equal opportunity to participate, either through consensus, direct vote, or right of appeal or overrule.
5. Actively works to establish the equality of all people and does not permit discrimination on the basis of race, class, creed, ethnic origin, age, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity.
6. Acts to conserve natural resources for present and future generations while striving to continually improve ecological awareness and practice.
Creates processes for group communication and participation and provides an environment which supports people's development.
http://wiki.ic.org/wiki/Federation_of_Egalitarian_Communities (accessed Nov, 2010)

3 http://twinoaks.org/FAQ.html accessed July 30, 2010
4 Communistic Societies of the United States, 1875, Charles Nordhoff p. 260
5 Communistic Societies of the United States, 1875, Charles Nordhoff p. 271
6 Communistic Societies of the United States, 1875, Charles Nordhoff p. 260
7 http://www.nyhistory.com/central/oneida.htm (accessed nov, 2010)
8 Cochranism Delineated, A twentieth Century study, Joyce Butler . 148
9 Cochranism Delineated, A twentieth Century study, Joyce Butler . 155
10 Cochranism Delineated, A twentieth Century study, Joyce Butler . 157
11 Luke 4
12 Luke 7
13 Matthew 15: 6, 8-9
14 John 15:18 - 22
15 Acts 5:29
16 http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/B37594.html Jan van Batenburg Divorce was obligatory if one party to the marriage was not of their group. "Polygamy was common among them, and, like the early Christians, their goods were the common possession of all." They awaited the imminent return of the Lord, and Batenburg considered himself to be Elijah.
17 “It is a curious fact that with every great revolutionary moment the question of free love comes into the foreground. With one set of people, as a revolutionary progress, as a shaking off of old traditional fetters, no longer necessary; with others as a welcome doctrine, comfortably covering all sorts of free and easy practices between man and woman” Frederick Engels, “The book of Revelation, in Progress, Vol II 1883.
Christopher Hill World Turned Upside Down p 306.
18 Cochranism Delineated, A twentieth Century study, Joyce Butler . 148
19 Cochranism Delineated, A twentieth Century study, Joyce Butler . 158
20 History of Joseph Smith by his Mother; Lucy Mack Smith (p9) “Jason my oldest brother... became what was then called a Seeker, and believing that by prayer and faith the gifts of the gospel, which were enjoyed by the ancient disciples of Christ, might be attained”
21 History of Joseph Smith by his Mother; Lucy Mack Smith p 46 “About this time, my husband’s mind became much excited upon the subject of religion; yet he would not subscribe to any particular system of faith, but contended for the ancient order, as established by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and His Apostles.”
22 Joseph Smith - History 1:8 (History of the Church - volume1 chp. 1)
23 Joseph Smith - History 1:19 (History of the Church - volume1 chp. 1)

Mormon Polygamy on Trial : Day 11 Summary and Media links

Dr. Beaman, a professor in the Department of Classics and Religious Studies from Ottawa, testified on Dec 13. I did not travel to Vancouver for this part of the hearing, however, I have read both of Dr. Beaman’s affidavits that were submitted to the court, which I summarize here.

Dr. Beaman holds a Canada research chair and teaches in areas of religion and law, identity construction, and theory and methods in the social scientific study of religion. Her research is primarily focused on religious minorities and this has included studies of evangelical Christians, Latter-day Saints and others. She contends that the social and geographical isolation of some minority religious groups often leads to the perpetuation of stereotypes and unjustified curtailing of religious expression.

Dr. Beaman points out that polygamy is typically assumed to be harmful and this often reflects the experiences of people who have been abused in these communities. However, this would be similar to forming opinions about monogamous marriages based on interviews from women in shelters who are fleeing domestic abuse. Dr. Beaman noted that there is a scarcity of research from the polygamous communities, however she refers to the results of a 5 year exhaustive study of the Apostolic United Brethren (another LDS polygamous offshoot) performed by Janet Bennion. She also supports the more limited research performed by Dr. Campbell with the women from Bountiful -which has evolved over 5 years if you include on-going email and telephone conversations along with the actual visits. Beaman notes that these studies are notable for their rarity - and she poses that this at least partly due to the fact that women in polygamous relationships are reluctant to come forward because they fear judgment and criminal prosecution. Their marriage relationships remain obscure and they are “particularly vulnerable because of their hidden nature, not necessarily because of the nature of polygamy itself. (Beaman affidavit 2 pg 6). She also cautions that research on these communities should “not be directed toward a particular result or motivated by a researcher’s preformed conclusions”. She compares this to researching monogamous marriage and only looking for negative accounts. If we did this, we would certainly find a large number of accounts that confirm the harms of marriage and conclude that it should be criminalized.

Dr. Beaman further argues that polygamy must be seen in its’ overall social context. For example, a researcher might fairly conclude that monogamous relationships were harmful to the women of Canada “prior to legal changes which revolutionized divorce law, instituted marital property legislation, and criminalized sexual and physical assault of women by their husbands”. These legislative changes did not occur until the 1980s. She compares this to changes in South African marriage law which was changed to protect the rights of women in the event that a husband chooses to add another wife to the family.

Beaman further argues that polygamy and the legislation that prohibits polygamy must be placed in its’ social context. Noting that the anti-polygamy laws were implemented prior to social science research about “harms” she contrasts this against the stated aims of the contemporary times which were “sexual morality, racism, nation building, colonialism and the importation of Christianity”. Victorian era American polygamy played on fears of uncontrolled sexual desires and monogamy was seen as a higher and more virtuous state. Mormons were characterized as being non-Christian, Asiatic and traitors to their race. She quotes a 2008 paper by Sarah Carter which links Canada’s 1890 anti-polygamy law to a colonial vision that desired to shape the nation into a largely white and Christian state. Polygamy among the First Nations peoples and the impending immigration of Mormon settlers actively threatened this vision.

Dr. Beaman compares her research among women in the LDS and Evangelical Christian traditions and argues that these women exercise a high degree of free agency despite living within a tradition that teaches women to be submissive and respect man as their heads.

Dr. Beaman included her 2001 paper, titled Molly Mormons, Mormon Feminists and Moderates: Religious Diversity and the Latter Day Saints Church” along with her affidavit. In this research paper, Beaman describes the fragmented paths that women pursue in the male-dominated mainstream LDS church and how they maintain their autonomy and agency in the context of “institutionalized patriarchy” and conservative “Family values”.

Links to Dr. Lori Beaman’s affidavit and publications are included in Daphne Branham’s media release. If you are interested the way LDS (and perhaps FLDS women to a large extent) navigate their faith, you will find this worth reading.

Not enough research done to determine if polygamy is harmful, professor says

CBC News - British Columbia - Avoid polygamy stereotypes, court told

Mormon Polygamy on Trial: Day 10 Summary and media links

We all have our biases - at least I have mine. Perhaps it is time to disclose some of them. I am a white male who was born and raised in Southern Alberta, Canada. I am monogamous and heterosexual - I have been happily married to the same woman for almost 30 years. I recently retired from a 30 year career in the oil and gas industry where I worked as a research geoscientist - primarily involved with geostatistics.

I have six generations of Mormon ancestry (all monogamous). However, I chose to leave the LDS church and become a member of the Community of Christ in 2006 (the CofChrist/RLDS church was formed in 1860 as the anti-polygamy branch of the original Mormon church in 1860). I could never bring myself to believe that polygamy - as it was practiced in the Mormon church- was a divinely ordained principle. I struggled for many years trying to understand the history of Mormon polygamy and the many inconsistencies that have arisen due to the varying interpretations of this history. Finally, these inconsistencies became one of the primary reasons that I left the LDS church.

Now my biases are out in the open. That feels better.

In light of these biases, it may seem surprising when I say that I am uncomfortable with the way the polygamy charter challenge is proceeding and I am even more uneasy about the was the media is reporting the events. Here is a recent example.

Thursday marked Day 10 of the BC Supreme Court charter question concerning the constitutionality of Canada’s 1890 anti-polygamy law. Professor Joe Henrich from UBC was the expert witness. Dr. Henrich has very impressive credentials in psychology, anthropology, economics, and even aerospace engineering. However, he did not begin looking seriously into polygamy prior to March of 2010 when he was asked by the BC attorney general’s office to contribute as an expert witness in this case.

Dr. Henrich presented a powerpoint presentation to the court that provided an overview of his position. Starting from a biological perspective, he showed that human evolutionary considerations would suggest that our species should naturally tend to polygyny (one man with many wives). He backed up this assertion by showing that the vast majority of human cultures have been (or presently are) at least partially polygynous.

Dr. Henrich then proceeded to trace the history of Western monogamy. Starting with the ancient Greeks, more than 2500 years ago, he argued that monogamy was adopted to insure that citizens could have more equal status in society. He then traced the history of monogamy through Roman times, where Caesar Augustus strongly enforced monogamous marriage as a way to strengthen the empire. Dr. Henrich further reported that Christianity adopted its’ monogamous tradition through the influence of Roman law. The European nobility were slow to abandon their polygamous traditions until the Roman Catholic church was finally able to bring them into submission through controlling inheritance laws. It has been suggested that once the kings and nobles were restricted to having the same number of wives as the peasants, that this was a step towards democracy.

Dr. Henrich showed studies from Asia and Africa that indicate that polygamy and the resulting increase in un-marriageable men cause a significant increase in crime - especially substance abuse, robbery and murder. This is likely caused by the fact that higher status men are able to easily attract additional wives. while lower status men must take on significantly higher levels of risk in order to find a mate. He also reported that studies show that women and children in polygamous societies are at higher risk of a abuse and neglect. Dr. Henrich pointed out that these studies are not from North America, and that other factors such as relative wealth, education, culture, etc. must be taken into account.

I agree with many of Dr. Henrich’s arguments. For example, I strongly agree with his premise that the greatest positive step towards equal rights for women came when they were able to take control over their reproductive choices. His conclusions also indicated that in polygamous societies, polygamous families are always higher in status that monogamous ones. A strong confirmation of this tendency was given during the Reed Smoot hearings in 1903, when LDS President Joseph F. Smith confirmed that while less than 20% of the men in Utah men were polygamous, this group comprised almost 100% of the wealthy and powerful men in the state.

So given this agreement, why am I uncomfortable? For one thing, there are several of his other arguments that I find very hard to believe. Most of his conclusions are based on studies from cultures that are very different from our own. He contends that differences in wealth, culture and education can somehow be “controlled for” in statistical analysis. Having spent a significant part of my life working with statistical studies, and I find this very difficult to accept -especially without seeing any of the data. He also suggested that the most likely result of a polygamy induced gender imbalance would be an increase in the murder rate and I have certainly not seen evidence of this in the Creston area.

More troubling to me is his assertion that our cultural choice to embrace monogamy has resulted in mating patterns that have ultimately shaped our genetic evolution over the past 2500 years and that this combined effect has helped to shape us into a WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic) society that is significantly different from the rest of the human species. In his abstract for a recent paper, called “The weirdest people in the world”. Dr. Henrich states “WEIRD subjects are particularly unusual compared with the rest of the species – frequent outliers. The domains reviewed include visual perception, fairness, cooperation, spatial reasoning, categorization and inferential induction, moral reasoning, reasoning styles, self-concepts and related motivations, and the heritability of IQ. The findings suggest that members of WEIRD societies, including young children, are among the least representative populations one could find for generalizing about humans.”

We agree it’s WEIRD, but is it WEIRD enough? « Neuroanthropology

I believe we should be very careful with assertions like this. It reminds me of the track taken by Jared Diamond in his famous “Guns, Germs and Steel” where he self-depreciatingly cherry picks facts from science, history and even linguistics to explain how WE (Western Europeans) accidently - and fortuitously - evolved to become the pinnacle of human achievement. It is a slippery slope. One minute our culture is simply an outlier - a little better in terms of fairness, moral reasoning, cooperation, etc. Before you know it, we are not only different from other cultures, we are superior. We can prove it and we know why. Many of these same types of arguments have been historically used to justify slavery, colonization, imperialism and even Aryan supremacy. In short order, WEIRD could potentially come to stand for White European Imperialism’s Racial Discrimination.

Back to the subject of polygamy legislation. In a recent paper, Nathan Oman contends that the US Supreme Court decision on the 1879 Reynold’s Mormon Polygamy case was largely based upon racist and imperialistic views. He clearly documents how Mormons were portrayed as racially separate from the rest of America and how much of the anger against 19th Century Mormons was fueled by an accusation of racial treason.

SSRN-Natural Law and the Rhetoric of Empire: Reynolds v. United States, Polygamy, and Imperialism by Nathan Oman


Back to my biases - I am very sensitive to any claims that one group is superior to another on the basis of some arbitrary claim. For example, I get very nervous when our society is held up as monogamous with all of its’ associated benefits when in reality, our society is actually far from this ideal. This was pointed out by Dr. Henrich when he noted the similarities between serial monogamy and polygamy. It is also undeniable that the rich and powerful men in our society are not bound to a monogamous lifestyle - as can be easily observed on the covers of several popular magazines.

I am also very sensitive to media reporting that consistently reports stories that re-enforce preconceived biases and ignore important counter-evidence that comes out in the same proceedings. I strongly dislike legal tactics that attempt to win a case through excluding important evidence rather than sincerely seeking after the truth. For a good example of both of these points, just read the affidavits from Dr. Angela Campbell and Dr. Henrich. Then consider how lawyers defending section 293 spent an entire day attempting to block Dr. Campbell from testifying as an expert witness while happily accepting Dr. Henrich. In spite of the fact that Dr. Campbell has researched polygamy and the law for more than 5 years, and has actually made 2 personal research visits to Bountiful - while Dr. Henrich who has spent less than 200 hours studying the subject -beginning in March 2010. After you have read the affidavits, read the media reports on the two witnesses.

Does the reaction come from the quality of the witness or is it based upon how well the witness’s testimony agrees with the desired narrative?

Polygamy hurts women, hinders society: Expert

Legalized polygamy would be an attack on hard-won rights

Polygamy leaves women worse off, court told - The Globe and Mail

B.C. government too cowardly with polygamists

CTV Calgary- B.C. polygamy case underway with battle of experts - CTV News

The weirdest people in the world?
Joseph Henrich,Steven J. Heine and Ara Norenzayan (2010).
Behavioral and Brain Sciences, Volume 33, Issue 2-3, June 2010 pp 61-83
http://journals.cambridge.org.simsrad.net.ocs.mq.edu.au/action/displayAbstract?aid=7825833

Mormon Polygamy on Trial : Day 10 courtroom notes

Note: This is not an official transcript - and I am not a court stenographer. There are likely many errors in this report - but it is a reasonable account of the proceedings (especially when i could keep up)

Library is set-up outside - schedule for witnesses will be posted there.

Professor Joe Henrich Witness for AG BC

Dr. Henrich is the principle witness for the AG on the causes and effects of polygamy. Before his testimony, it is necessary for the AG (represented by Craig Jones) to spend more time than usual to establish the length and breadth of his expertise.

Canada Research chair in cognition and culture at UBC. From Government of Canada website, there are 2 tiers of research chairs. Tier 2 researchers are researchers who are recognized by their peers as world leaders in their field. Dr. H. has a PhD in anthropology but teaches in the department economics. Prior to UBC had been offered a tenured position at University of Michigan. During second year at U of M., was offered a visiting scholar position in Berlin. Received a Presidential award as an emerging scholar at the White House.

Bachelor degree in anthropology and aerospace engineering. PhD in Anthropology. $633 K grant for measuring cultural variation from institute of health. Grant from SSHRC on how groups affect thinking about individuals. Researches prejudice and stereotyping. Received grant at Emory in culture and cognition. Speaks to sociology and economics related to culture, cognition and evolution. His first undergrad degree was in satellite control.

Mr. Jones then introduces Mr. Henrich’s publications. One of his latest is in the New Scientist - called beyond WIERD - Western Industrialized Educated Rich and Democratic. He contends that the WIERD profile shows that Western Industrialized people are psychologically different from the rest of the species. He has defined universal and specialized areas of human behaviour - mating is on the universal end of the spectrum.

Recent article addresses costly aspects of religions - such as walking on coals, cutting of foreskin, dying for your beliefs, etc. These costly acts make it more likely to attract other people to your beliefs. Cultural evolution shapes genetic evolution over the long haul and over time, humans are becoming more cooperative and moral over time. Mr. Jones then asked Dr. H. what are the most prestigious journals in various fields - economics, nature, science, psychology, etc. He then confirmed that Dr. H. has published in many of these journals.

In a book called evolution, culture and the human mind, he has published a chapter about the types of Gods that are conceived in various societies. His research suggests that Gods become more moral, powerful, omniscient, etc as societies become more complex. Gods are conceived as being more interested in individual behaviour as societies become more complex. Certain societies are better at sharing information and interacting among individuals. These societies tend to evolve faster because good ideas are built from fragments of old ones.

From the Oxford handbook of evolutionary psychology, wrote a chapter about how cultural and biological evolution affect each other. Is it safe to say that MIT and Oxford university presses are most prestigious - yes.

Dr. H. has been an invited lecturer in Canada, USA, London, Sweden, etc.

In terms of field work: Dr. H has made six visits to Fiji of between 1 and 6 months. He has studied cultural transmission, what children learn, who they learn from, how they capture information, etc. During this time, he lives in a house in the middle of the village. In Chile, he has lived among the largest indigenous group trying to answer the question of how people weigh cost and benefits between various decisions. He learned that people do not have all the necessary information they need to make these decisions so they rely on culturally transmitted information. In this case, he learned that they most often plant wheat over other crops because this is a more important in their culture. In Peruvian Amazon, he has studied the effects of distance from market in how villagers determine their economic decisions like what crops to plant, how much to plant, etc.

During these studies, he has determined that he must live in a community for several months before he is able to get beyond simply being an outsider in the community. People must relax around you before you can really learn how the community works and what people are thinking.

He is a reviewer for several journals including nature and science, and the proceedings for the natural academy of science, zoology, anthropology, etc. Reviewer for several economics journals and psychological journals. Also reviewer for philosophy journals.

Classes Dr. H has taught at Emory and UBC include undergrad courses in introduction to anthropology, etc. He has taught field and analytical methods for anthropology. At UBC he is teaching related to economic behaviour and morality. He believes it is important for economics and psychology grads to understand each other.

Mr. Jones asks that Dr. Henrich be qualified as an expert witness in psychology, evolutionary psychology, economics, anthropology, as well as interdisciplinary field of culture, cognition and co-evolution. Amicus accepts the witness (at 10:25).

Going back to Dr. H. affidavit - sets out his involvement in the polygamy reference that goes back to March 2010. He was asked by the AG not to advocate for any position but to follow the evidence where ever it leads and notes where the science diverges. His wife, Dr. Natalie Henrich, was his research assistance. Her resume was marked as exhibit 1. She has a PhD in anthropology and a masters in public health and teaches in public health at UBC. Their research on polygamy totals 144 hrs for Dr. H and 80.5 hrs for his wife. He has a sense that there are always more books to read but he feels confident that he has come to a good understanding. He has read the affidavits of Dr. Woo from Uvic, Dr. Shackeford, Dr. Campbell, Dr Scheidel, etc. He was here for the questioning of Dr. Campbell. Dr. H is solely responsible for the contents of the report and affidavit.

Dr. H presented a ppt which includes information from courses that he teaches at UBC. One of the courses is psych 358 and the other is economics 233. WRT to evidence as to the various harms of polygamy, please comment regarding the weight of the evidence on each point.

Dr. H. then proceeded to show his powerpoint .

Evolved mating psychology - female and male psychology differences tilt us toward polygynous mating systems.
The greater absolute wealth differences, the greater the polygyny.
Why is our society different - we have major differences in wealth but are monogamous?

Evolved mating pscych is different because of differences in reproductive psych. Women only produce 400 eggs, gestation, etc. Men have thousands of sperm and very little investment.

Female mating strategies
Women will have few offspring. Therefore they must have the highest possible quality partner. Women’s preference change over the course of ovulation.

Male mating - can have between 0 and thousands of offspring. the most successful strategy is to have many partners and not invest in offspring. Because this is not always possible, they like to form single pair bonds and invest a great deal in the offspring.

The resulting pattern is that males are inclined to make extra pair bonds and if they can seek extra pair copulations. Females only get pregnant sequentially - they want to maintain paternity certainty - so they do not want to have extra pair bond copulations.

As a cultural species, social norms occur - how do they behave, what is good behaviour, how to punish. This eventually becomes an internalized motivation and a stable social norm. Pair bonds come from evolutionary psych. Marriage is a pair bond regulated by what people believe about proper behaviour.

Marriage systems: Dowry, bride price, etc Rules about sex - 90% regulate female sex but only 28% regulate males.

Marriage systems are culturally evolved systems called institutions that regulate pair bonds. All marriage systems culturally reinforce pair bonding of human psych.

Not all human societies have marriage systems.

Anthropological terminology

Marriage is a long term bond between two peopel that is recognised and sacntioned by community.

Key summary:
Context of marriage systems, male mating pscych strongly favours long term pair bonds with multiple partners. Their ability to attract long term partners will depend on wealth and social status.

Male psych is highly adverse to uncertainty around offspring uncertainty.

From a statistical point of view the societies of the world are:
Polyandry 1%
Monogamy 15%
Monog 33%
occasional polygyny 37%
frequent polygyny 48%

Types of polygyny
General : wives are not sisters, there are separate households
Sororal polygyny
Wives should be sisters or closely related - tend to have one household.

Men in Polygynous families are always higher status than men in monogamous families.

History reveals that the larger the empire the larger men’s harems become unless they are regulated by laws or social norms.

Polyandry is quite rare. Usually fraternal. Typically intermixed with other marriage types. Tend to be unstable. Sometimes becomes a group marriage - when younger brother marries a second wife and become polygamous. Anthropologists argue this becomes common when men must travel - one stays around to deal with danger and the other travels.

Group marriage: scattered reports. In these societies, men choose to loan their wives services to other men, honored guests, etc. The other men might already be married so it may look like a complicated marital arrangement.

Fraternal polyandry is common because both men are related to offspring.

Theoretical interlude (and rest break)
Traces monogamy back to Rome and Greece. Spread with industrialization across the world. For example 1880 in Japan.

Greek states started monogamy in early sixth century as a way to increase solidarity between citizens. each greek citizen can have only one wife, but can have sex slaves. The wealthy and powerful make the rules and they benefit from imposed monogamy on all others.

Rome outlawed polygyny - Augustus sought to strengthen the empire and instituted reforms to encourage every man between 25 and 60 to get married.

Christianity gets its monogamy from Roman Empire. The Catholic church had a long history of battling with the nobles who tended to be polygynous. The church eventually got the europeans noble to embrace monogamy through controlling the definition of their heirs.

Once the nobles and kings are held to the same number of wives as the peasant farmers, this has been argued as a step towards democracy.

Theory as to polygynous marriage and monogamous marriage:
Polygyny _ expands pools of low status unmarried men. Facing genetic extinction, these men are motivated to engage in risky behaviours.
Increases rates of murder, rape, robbery and drug abuse
increased competition
drives down age of first marriage


Monogamous marriage:
Married low status males shift into long-term investment mode
married high status males impeded from investing in seeking additional long term mates
Both now motivated to invest in current wife and offspring

Maximizes genetic relatedness
increases paternity certainty, reducing domestic violence, etc

Polygynous
Married men reduce investment in current wife and offspring because they are always looking for additional mates.
etc.

Central piece of argument:
Always a pool of unmarried, low status men

If 33% of a society is polygynous, there will be 40% unmarried low status men. Dr. H has constructed the ratio the same as bountiful. If a man is on the bottom, he has to take big risks like crime, robbery, etc.

Evidence suggests that unmarried low status men engage in crime, social disruption, rape, substance abuse. etc.

Literature shows that married men were much lower risk of substance abuse and crime. Getting married changes men. Sampson et al 2006, showed that each man had a lower risk of committing crime during the time when they were married versus when they were single. Crime reduction of 35% when married. Even when a man is widowed, he is more likely to commit crime.

From a Nebraska study - the effect of crime reduction is about 50%, the same as going to post secondary school. Getting married has a bigger negative effect on crime than the positive crime correlation due to drinking. Drugs has the biggest positive correlation with crime.

Do individual statistics aggregate up to societal level? This is difficult because polygyny now co-occurs with low GDP, low female equality, little democracy, etc.

Ran regression analysis controlling for economic development, economic inequality, population density and democracy.

Replace polygyny % with number of unmarried men because number of unmarried men actually does the harm.

The regression analysis is noisy because of difficulties in getting accurate data. This was backed up by using a encyclopedia of world culture with a ranking term of 0 to 3. In terms of Bountiful, it is in the highest category of polygamy.

Sex ratio can also be a factor to determine the effect of polygamy. One child policy and preferences for sons cause a major effect sex imbalance in China. In India, there is a higher preferences for sons - and this leaves large numbers of low status males. There is a change in the psychology and this may be a factor in the larger murder rates that occur in India.

For China - adult sex ratios rose from 1.05 to almost 2 between 1988 and 2004 in preference for males.

During this same time, the crime rate doubles. 90% of crime is committed by men.

Excellent opportunity for statistical analysis of the impacts because the policy was not implemented in all provinces at the same time. This means that the effects occur at different times across the provinces.

Extra males came about because of enormous investment in one-child families wanting sons. These were not neglected children.

a 0.01 increase in sex ratio is associated with a 3% increase in crime.

Causality: taking the year of implementation, were able to use the year of the one child policy was implemented as a proxy instead of the actually sex ratio.

Looking at crime rates across 19th century America, the crime rates are highest in newly settled areas where men moved into the region at an earlier time than women. Crime rates dropped when women moved into the area and the sex ratio came closer to 1.

....

Predictions of family impacts:

relative to monogamy, polygyny also impacts parental investments.

empirical predictions: 19th century Mormon Communities in Utah.

Wealthy men had an average of 3.2 wives compared to 1.4 among the poor. Wealthy men had more offspring. Had longer reproductive careers.

Poor mens children had better survival rate 6.9 lived to 15 rather than 5.7 per wife for wealthy men.

Children from polygynous societies: Poorer nutritional status for the children of polygamous mothers than monogamous ones.

analysis controlled for wealth and other characteristics.

Study using data from 22 sub saharan african countries showed significant child mortality risks with polygamy.

Anderson studied 22 monogamous and 22 polygamous families in South Africa. Wrote about benifits of polygamy - showed that sororal polygamy had highest survivial rates for children 4.7 vs 4 for monogamy vs 3.87 for general monogamy.

Internal competition among wives, jealousy, etc. causes higher rates of psychological disorders, compulsion, depression, etc in a study of Arab women.

Hadly study showed no difference between monogamy and polygamy in a Hadley study in East Africa.

No studies showed that polygamy is better than monogamy.

Cultural group selection for social norms that have higher group benefits. It spread because it gives an advantage to a society in competition with other societies.

Monogamous marriages has evolved to harness pair bonding and paternal investment.
Mr. Jones led Dr. Henrich through a summary of his presentation with comments about the harms of polygamy and the strength of causation. Amicus has no objection.

First the question was related to harm to the participants.
With respect to infant mortality and harms to children, the data are primarily from Africa and it is difficult to extrapolate to North America. It cannot be seperated with the existing sample size.

For psycho social harms to women, there is more data with respect to harms to women. However, this is still difficult to seperate from the overall cultural backgrounds.

In terms of crime and violence, there are more risk factors in a theoretical sense. However, there is more likelihood of these harms. They do not have practical examples at present (footprints in the sand) to back this up.

Harms to society.

With respect to excess males. This is the most reliable data due to cross-matched data from China etc. This has the highest confidence.

With respect to earlier sexualization of young women. This flows directly from the mathematics of polygamy. The age depression effect is well documented through dominant men taking eligible women from the marriage pool. This drives polygynous men and would be polygynous men to take younger wives.

Polygyny tends to decrease gender equality because it incentivises males to control women. In New Guinie, there was the same institutionalized swapping of brides among families that has been documented in the FLDS community in Colorado city.

Regarding a demographic analysis of the FLDS side of Bountiful community. The data came from Mr. Wickett (FLDS lawyer). This is the only hard demographic numbers for any polygynous society in North America that he knows of. There are 30 men and 30 women in monagamous marriages. There are 2 men with 5 wives ...

There are 33 males and 22 females that are unmarried.

Unmarried total population of unmarried is equal with 79 of each.

There is one 17 yr old male, 5 16 yr old males, etc.

The table looks like what was expected. THere are missing males that came about in late adolecents. It is in the 83% of the cross cultural index - quite high rate of polygyny - on a 0 to 3 scale, it is in the highest level. It is the only discrete community in Canada that has provided this sort of data. One possibility is that our values - healthcare, democracy, etc. stops the practice of polygyny from spreading.

Refering to the work of Dr. Shackleford - on domestic violence, homocide, etc. There are very strong increases in the likelihood of children being at risk in homes iwth step parents. There is also indication of increasing inter-spousal violence related to the age gap between spouses. Shacklefords work is restricted to monogamous marriages. Dr. H. has simply extrapolated this data to polygamous families. There are many more unrelated pairs (parents and children) when you add additional wives to a family. The number of unrelated pairs increases as the square of the number of wives. If you extrapolate Shackelfords data, everything should be worse in polygamous households.

Regarding tables produced by Dr. Woo - used in his testimony of Monday. Both tables show similar things. In each age catagories, there is already additional single men vs single women in the Canadian census data. Perhaps there are many informal marriage like arrangements like common law marriages. It is likely that the lower status (lower aged) men are not married yet, but are going to get married. This is simply a snap-shot in time. According to demographers, more males are born than females. When polygyny exists, the sex ratio is exacerbated. In terms of increase in criminality, if there is 50,000 unmarriageable men, does it matter weather the starting point is 100,000 or 0. No, it is a linear relationship. Any additional unmarriageable men affects the system.

Those who are inclined to polygamy, criminalization does not deter the practice. Because the size of the polygamous community is so small, the surplus men from polygamous communities will not impact the overall pool of surplus men in a significant way. Dr. H. asserts that any surplus men will increase the crime rate.

Polygyny is a “ready response” programmed in our species. Even if we put aside Canadians who have adopted Canadian social values - there is a likelihood that if polygamy were de-criminalized that Canada would become the destination of choice for polygamous families who want to immigrate to the West. Fertility is always higher in polygynous communities so these communities will grow faster than the general population. It is possible that polygyny could quickly spread among the general population. If high status people like actors, etc. took additional wives, this could quickly be followed by the rest of the population.

The idea of serial monogamy shows that the psychology of polygamy is already present. In this case, the older wife is simply discarded in favour of a younger wife. He is often asked why we aren’t already a polygynous society. In response, he asks this question. Say you are in love with two men. One is a billionaire but married and the other is a normal guy but single. The women in his classes, as high as 75 to 100% say that they would become the second wife of the billionaire -regardless of being second wife - with all other things being equal. Perhaps this shows the seeds of polygamy are already in our society.

Amicus Cross examination by Mr. McIntosh.

referring to first affidavit on page two, para 5. Mr. Jones had contacted him in March to ask if he would be interested in looking at polygamy and the purported harms. Did Mr. Jones specifically ask him to look at the problem of unmarried men and the marriage age of young women. Mr. Jones had advised him to look at the topics of unmarried young men and the age of young women. Dr. H. is not sure if this came from the conversations, but they certainly came up quickly as sure as he began to look at the literature. They are very commonly understood concepts and universal in the literature.

Referring to a document documenting the harms of polygamy in para 25 on page 10. Refers to women marrying too young. Next refers to surplus young men. The document was from February 2010 and he was retained in March 2010. Prior to this date, he has never published on polygamy in his life. Dr. H. affirmed that this was true. He has never done any direct research on polygamy. Dr. H. confirmed this.

Mr. McIntosh asserted that much of the data in Dr. H. work does not come from polygamy directly but comes from other sources woven into his current understanding on polygamy. His 2 main harms are the same as the AG already asserted. When he focused on these as the two main harms of polygamy - it is focus on polygamy per se, rather than bad conduct that can occur in both monogamy and polygamy. Is this not true? Dr. H. asserted that he had an intitial theory and he simply followed his theory in looking at the data. Naturally, these harms can happen in all forms of marriage but Dr. H contends that these happen more frequently in polygamy.

Mr. Mc. offers that these same harms happen in both poly and mono - and are not unique to poly.

Mr Mc. offered that there are different types of polygamy - polygyny, same sex female unions,

Dr. H. indicates that anthropology does not deal with this.

What about 3 men?

Dr. H. Anthropological literature does not deal with this.

Mr. Mc. - points out that Dr. H. originally starts off discussing polygamy generally, but quickly changes to polygyny. Restricted work to polygyny rather than general.

yes.

Mr. Mc. Did the AG direct you to do this or did you do it yourself?

Dr. H. The work quickly suggested that he follow the path of polygyny because this is where the harms were most obvious.

MR. Mc. Did you find the same types of harms in other forms of polygamy.
Dr, H. No, only in polygyny

Mr. Mc. In terms of your affidavit, are you representing to the court that what is in exhibit B is true.

Dr. H. It is as true as any of my research papers.

Mr. Mc. Are you staking your professional reputation on the reliability of this work?

Dr. H. yes, I am planning to prepare a publication based on this work.

Mr. Mc. Referring to a conclusion that there is a non-trivial increase in the incidence of polygyny would cause an increase in crime. Do you believe this would occur?

Dr. H. yes

Mr. Mc. You are not a criminalogist, or a lawyer, yet you say that polygyny would increase if it were legalized in Canada? is this true?

Dr. H. yes

Mr. Mc. One of your propositions is that rich alpha males would marry many women if the state legalized polygamy.

Dr. H. yes - this is quite plausible.

Mr. Mc. Do you recognize that we are talking about whether there is a difference between de-criminalizing polygamy versus legalizing it.

Dr. H. We are getting into a terminological mess.

Mr. Jones: Objected that this legalese is just confusing the court.

Mr. Mc. Objection is not appropriate. Do you know the difference between de-criminalization versus legalization?

Dr. H. No.

Mr. Mc. All your talk is about saying what will happen with rich men if society says it is all right?

Dr. H. All I can say is what the data says in the paper.

Mr. Mc. When you gave the opinion that polygamy would likely increase if it were de-criminalized, did you know that there were many very reputable opinions that say just the opposite?
Dr. H. yes.

Mr. Mc. In the Canadian law review from 1985 it says that polygamy, like adultery is a marginal practice that corresponds to no legal or social practice. It has existed in many instances, like hippy communes in the sixties - and since it is so foreign to our legal system and culture that it will not catch on in our society.

Dr. H. He was not aware of this paper. He is interested in what the evidence was.

Mr. MC. your lead-in proposition is that legalization will quite plausibly lead to more polygamy.

Mr. H. Yes. Based on my studies, I think this is right.

Mr. Mc. I presume that you have studied how often section 293 has been used and what it has been used for?

Dr. H. I did not

When you used the words that you thought it would increase, you were aware that it has been rarely used. That it has ONLY been used once in over 110 yrs ago for an aboriginal family and 100 yrs ago in a non-plyg setting and 73 years ago in a non plyg setting?

Dr. H. No I was not aware.

Mr. Mc. In the sciences, you are not supposed to look at a common sense, real world check so it will not conflict with the theory. In the social sciences, are you not allowed to look at the society around you to see if something makes sense?

Dr. H. No - that is why I travel to remote societies to see what happens there.

In all your time in Canada - did you ever hear someone say that they can’t wait until section 293 is dropped so I can marry another wife.

Dr. H. no.

Mr. Mc. Should you use your active life experience against your theories?
Dr. H, No - never.

Dr. H. Can I speak as to why I say that polygamy can spread?

yes,

Dr. H. Monogamy and christianity became infused in about the 4 CE. And this began to spread in the nobility of europe. Canada has had a judeo christian background, and monogamy is based on this. Many new immigrants are coming from africa and other places where this is not the norm.

Mr. Mc. You mention that a pool of unmarried men should increase the rates of murder, rape and robbery. A male who has no opportunity for marriage will engage in risky behaviour, ie murder, robbery, etc. in order to obtain a wife. More men than women equals crime.

Dr. H. yes.

I want to challenge some reasoning. In report you take us to China and you show that there are more boys than girls growing up. More boys than girls equals more crime.

Dr : yes - however, I did not do original research, I just relied on a published paper.

Mr. M : This is unfortunately, we cannot cross examine the authors of the report. however, the papers shows that a small increase in the amount of men simply will double the crime rate because this paper indicates it.

Dr. H. However, I would not put it so simply

Mr. M. You are putting this in front of us saying that more extra men equals more murder , etc.

I would not say that on any one paper.

Mr. M. However you want the court to take away that a small increase in the number of men will cause in increase in the murder rate. however, the authors also suggest that this should not be the case. The economy is growing, and the population is shrinking, so the murder rate should go down. It should follow that the heavy desire for male children should mean that there is a major investment in these favoured children and this child investment should result in less crime.

Dr. H. However, this is not the case so that is why it is surprizing.

Mr. Mc. Is it also not true that this data has absolutely nothing to do with polygamy?
Dr. H. True

Mr. M: Did not this same time period correspond for the largest migration from rural to an urban setting? Also this same time period coincides with tianamon square - and it is well known that the Chinese government has used crime statistics as a means to act against the pro-democracy movement. How can we rely on these statistics. Can these things simply be normalized away?

Dr. H. Unless you believe the statistics are manipulated in the direction of what you are looking for you should believe them.

Mr. M. In your comments on the FLDS statistical data, you mention that this is data from the only polygynous community in Canada. This is the most polygynous community in all of Canada. 60 are monogamous (30 men and 30 women). 55 people are polygynous. 15 men and 40 women. 33 unmarried men and 22 unmarried women. 48 men and 66 women in total are either polygamous or unmarried adults. Correct?

Dr. H. yes

Any man who leaves Bountiful is able to stay single, get married outside or get gay married?

Dr. H. yes.

Referring to Dr. Woo’s demographic data in terms of the unmarried men. there are 550,000 more men than women in Canada according to the 2006 census. These men have never married. In the 2002 census data, this is essentially the same. Almost 500,000 men are never married. These are not lost boys?

Dr. H. No

Mr. M. This is not due to polygamy?
Dr. H, No

According to Dr. Woo. there are 905,000 divorced men in Canada - men who once had mates but do not now. Do you accept this data?

Dr. H. yes.

Does this have anything to do with polygamy?

Dr. H. It is still the case that almost everyone in Canada gets married.

Yes and once all the men on this page get married there are 500,000 more each year.

Dr. H. yes

Mr. M. Do you know the legal age of marriage in BC?

Dr. H. not sure - 16?

Mr. M. 16 with parental consent - 19 without parental consent. From our opening statement, we spoke of this pool of unmarried men as being statistically meaningless. At this time, you stated that we did not understand. Also you suggested that if Canada de-criminalized polygamy that it would become a destination for polygamists?

I believe it is plausible.

Are you aware that Canada can set any immigration rules that it desires?

yes

Are you aware that contemporary research said that if canada de-criminalized homosexuality that it would become a destination for homosexuals?

I believe that happened - that it appeared in the contemporary literature.

Mr. McIntosh. Completed with witness.

Cross examine from BCCLA (Monique)

Would you agree that Canada is dominantly a monogamous society?

Yes.

Do you agree that Canada will not become a dominantly polygamous society?

yes

Are you not just creating a model and making predictions - is this not speculation?

All we can do is make a model, test it, and make predicitons.

Would you not agree that Canada makes definite steps to promote the ethos of human rights respect?

yes

Would you not agree that Canada invests a great deal to promote the well-being of children, education, etc

yes

Does this not impact the effect of how Canada would change if we de-criminalized polygamy?

It would depend on how the policies are formed.

Do you not agree that the priority on human rights that the institutions we have formed in Canada would have a social impact on the de-criminalization of polygamy in Canada?

I can’t speak to that.

Would it not be fair to say that it might be helpful to have a sociologist determine how Canadian institutions would impact the effects of polygamy in Canada? You are not a sociologist are you?

No but I have written many articles in journals of sociology.

In a country like Canada - we have a very specific culture and set of institutions that have a very high regard for equality etc. Would not this restrict a leap to polygamy?

We do not now all the factors involved, I want to agree with you but I don’t know.

Do you believe that Canadian women would abandon the rights that we now have and this would lead to a leap to polygamy?

This might not happen tomorrow - however, if Polygamy were decriminalized we don’t know what would happen in a 50 years period.

Monique: Do you believe that Canadian women would freely give up the rights that had to work so hard to obtain?

Dr, H. I don’t know

Monique; I would submit to you that we would not.

Mormon Polygamy on Trial : Day 7 Summary and media coverage

Strangely, Day 7 was the most difficult day of the proceedings for me on a personal level. Dr. Lawrence Beall, a Salt Lake City based specialist in the treatment of psychological trauma was the expert witness for the Attorney General. Dr. Beall has treated 30 “polygamy survivors” over the past 6 years (or so).

I believe Dr. Beall outlined some very important points during his testimony - and the media reporters have done a good job outlining these items. He described the extreme centralized control of the prophet and priesthood leaders over church members. Beall reported that his patients, who have left FLDS movement, exhibited symptoms very similar to Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, having lived in a community where their every action was closely watched and where they could be expelled for being unfaithful or rebellious at a moment’s notice. These “polygamy survivors” have a very difficult time adjusting to the outside world, both due to their lack of practical education and also because they have been taught that the outside world is a wicked and dangerous place. He observed that the women often become expert at suppressing emotions, and tend to turn their abusive experiences inward in the form of guilt and shame. The young men who have been expelled from the group are better able to express their anger and they tend to act out their symptoms in the form of crime, violence and substance abuse.

Dr. Beall explained how the FLDS community is structured like a caste system. The Prophet, and those who he favors, form an inner circle who enjoy tremendous benefits due to their status. Life is not so pleasant for those on the outer circle, and this is where most of his patients have come from. Dr. Beall also explained how difficult it is for adolescents who grow up in this society. Adolescence is a time when we struggle to find our identity. Questioning and experimentation are a natural part of this phase of life, and in FLDS communities, this is not allowed. They are taught if they think and feel something other than what the prophet says then they are wrong. This teaches them to lose trust in what they think and feel as an individual.

For some reason, the media reports tend to ignore the cross-examination phase of Dr. Beall’s testimony. Mr. Wickett’s questioning took an interesting turn when he asked Dr. Beall whether he was a member of the LDS church - which he is.

Mr. Wickett then questioned Dr. Beall about the extensive similarities in doctrine and belief in the LDS and FLDS churches. Excepting for the actual practice of polygamy (the LDS church believes in plural marriage but does not allow members to practice it), and the specific prophet you choose to believe in, the churches are certainly very similar. This might not be obvious in the case of the isolated FLDS communities in Eldorado Tx, Colorado City or Bountiful, BC. However, the similarities become more apparent when you look at the more liberal Mormon polygamous groups like the AUB. In fact, the seeds for Mormon fundamentalism are certainly carried within the mainstream LDS church even today. This is evidenced by the fact that one of Dr. Beall’s patients had come from the Harmston group. Their Prophet and most of the members of this Polygamous Mormon sect, now called the “True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days”, were faithful members of the mainstream LDS church until 1994.

Dr. Beall’s LDS background opened another important line of questioning. It allowed Mr. Wickett to carefully review the history of persecutions that the Mormons endured for their practice of polygamy. Wickett recounted how the Mormons were driven from Missouri and Illinois, how over 1000 polygamous men were imprisoned and their leaders were forced into hiding, When the Mormons still refused to comply, The Federal US government eventually dissolved the corporation of the LDS church and began to seize its assets. Finally, in 1890, faced with the threat of total extinction, Prophet/President Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto which officially discontinued the practice of Polygamy in the Mormon Church.

In reality, the Mormon Church just went into a period of public denial while the practice of Polygamy secretly continued among a privileged inner circle until at least 1904 - when this undercover practice was discovered during the Reed Smoot senate hearings. Even after new marriages were no longer officially sanctioned, Mormon Polygamists retained membership in the LDS church, without penalty, until the 1930s. Since they have been expelled from the Mormon Church, the polygamous groups have endured further persecution, criminal prosecutions and raids - ranging from Short Creek in 1953 to Eldorado, Texas in 2008. In spite of this overwhelming opposition, the Mormon Polygamists quietly continue the practice of their faith.

After a quick review of these facts, Mr Wickett asked Dr. Beall’s “Do you think criminal prohibition will ever be effective in ending Mormon polygamy?”

Dr. Beall didn’t know.

Mr. Wickett then returned to an earlier statement that Dr. Beall had made about how the fear of criminal prosecution and the resulting isolation made it more difficult for FLDS women to leave their community or to get assistance from social services and law enforcement in cases of abuse.

Did Dr. Beall believe that de-criminalization of Polygamy might make it easier for them?

Dr. Beall didn’t offer an opinion.

Personally, I believe the facts have already spoken for themselves.

Here are some of the noteworthy media reports from Day 7.

The many faces of polygamy - The Globe and Mail

Many women fleeing polygamist unions suffered sex abuse, guilt: Psychologist

'Polygamy survivors' often frightened for their lives: psychologist

Psychologist describes abuse and robotic demeanour of polygamist women

And some noteworthy blogs on the topic of Polygamy who are following the charter challenge:
(from a non-Mormon - fundamentalist Christian perspective)
http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/
(from the FLDS perspective)
http://texasflds.wordpress.com/

Mormon Polygamy on Trial: Day 7 Notes from the Courtroom

Courtroom notes: (READER BEWARE: This is not an authorized transcript and I am not a court stenographer. Many of the statements are paraphrased and while I have made my best efforts to represent the events, it is certainly possible that I have made mistakes in this record)

Justice Bauman spoke with witness Ruth Lane via a telephone conversation. Ruth affirmed to tell the truth regarding her evidence concerning her desire to uphold a publication ban on her video evidence. She indicated that she knew that her video testimony would be used in a courtroom setting, however, she is very cautious that the media tends to use information to fit their purposes and will take segments out of context. She was not aware that the media was going to broadcast an edited segment of her testimony via the internet and when this was done, it caused her sister - who still lives in the community - to be very upset. While much of the actual information was already public, she stated that she would not have shared so much of her personal story if she had known that the media was going to edit the testimony and broadcast it.

Lawyer for the media, Mr. Burnett, argued that the information in the edited video was already public. Mr. Jones, AG BC, referred to a recent legal precedent in this area from Ontario.

Justice Bauman will consider the request - no immediate decision was announced.

First Witness for AG BC: Dr. Lawrence Dalton Beall

Dr. Beall has submitted two affidavits to the court. Lawyer for the AG BC, Karen Horsman, relied primarily to the first affidavit. There was no objection to his qualifications an expert witness. Dr. Beall has a Bsc in Psychology, Msc in education and PhD from Brigham Young University in clinical psychology. He has practiced as a professional psychologist since 1984. His work is involved in the area of diagnosing psychological problems. He has worked with victims of psychological trauma, victims of domestic abuse, veterans, torture, etc. His Salt Lake clinic treats patients who are attempting to return to a useful role in society.

He set up a satellite trauma clinic at a homeless shelter because many homeless people suffer from psychological trauma. Overall, his clinics have treated about 5600 trauma patients, 400 of which were children. They are a state approved treatment center for victims of domestic violence. He has developed manuals to assist in treatment of women coming out of domestic violence. Many had come out of situations were they did not have the necessary life skills to live in the outside world.

He became involved in treatment of victims of polygamous communities in 2004?. He has done some work with victims of polygamy - both women and young men, that were referred through work force services, Tapestry against polygamy and Diversity. In the first referral, from work place services, they had already diagnosed a polygamy victim as a victim of post traumatic stress. Prior to this first referral, he did not have any experience with the polygamous communities in the United States.

His patients have included 14 women and 15 men. Eight of the women came from the non-FLDS Mormon Polygamous groups. They came from Kingston and Harmston groups, he thought. They have chief elements in common with LDS groups - including the doctrinal core of being saved through polygamous marriage. The FLDS patients appeared to be more indoctrinated and a tighter network of control, including from the prophet, priesthood leaders, parents, etc. He believes that his statements will apply generally across the polygamous LDS groups.

In respect to 11 clients referred by Diversity, he supervised treatment directly. Another clinician did direct treatment. He supervised. Treatment generally lasts 12 to 16 sessions for women and 6 to 10 sessions for young men. He has authored a paper on the effects of modern day polygamy on women and children. This will be published in a psych journal that will be dedicated to polygamy.

He has developed the opinion, from his experience, that people from a polygamous background display a unique set of symptoms. He has served as an expert witness on the YFZ Texas case and interviewed 6 women in Hilldale (2 have left the community).

He further stated that he examined information from the YFZ case archive.

Mr. Wickett (Lawyer for the FLDS) objected that Ms. Horsman was now moving beyond information in the affidavit.

Justice Bauman indicated that wide latitude was given to Dr. Campbell, so he allowed the questioning.

These records included birth records, priesthood records, letters to leaders, teachings, etc.

He compared this information against the literature to see if it agreed.

He has been an expert witness in about 40 cases. In the Texas YFZ case, he has been qualified as an expert witness in 5 prosecutions. He summarized his role in 5 criminal convictions in the YFZ case. He spoke of how the women were not aware of the consequences of their decision to marry, sex issues, specific information about the men that they married, etc.

Presented an affidavit relating to an affidavit from a Dr. Matthew Davies who was a witness in Texas on the FLDS case.

Before treating patients from these communities, he had no specific experience regarding Mormon Polygamous communities. During this practice, he learned about Bountiful from patients who were from Short Creek but had been trafficked between there and Bountiful.

Young men had been expelled from Community. In one case, fathers had been expelled and they did not want another father. In other cases, they were expelled for “rebelliousness” .

Dr. Beall characterized a typical diagnosis for a woman from a polygamous community. It uses a 5 point axis that was developed - characterizes symptoms presented, personality disorders, medical problems (esp those that link to mental), stressors and level of functioning. Axis 1 is a PST disorder. Many of his patients had psychologically traumatic events that impacted them seriously. This becomes intrusive experience, ie flashbacks and nightmares. PSTD is the only disorder that is based upon an event where memories from the event intrude on present functioning. Post Trauma was common in his FLDS patients. This was more common in women but also present in men.

Referring to a point of divergence between himself and Dr. Matthew Davies. Dr. Davies believes that the patients are mis-diagnosed as PTSD and were really experiencing cognitive disannince. He states that cognitive disonance is not a psych disorder. He believes the disorders he has seen far exceeds the emotional trauma from Cognitive disonance. Dr. Davies also beleives that adjustment disorder is a part of the FLDS survivor experience. Dr. Beal believes that PTSD is much more severe in the impact of stressors and there is very likely he can be mistaken.

In his experience, the women tended to internalize their abusive experiences - including shame, robotic symptoms, shut down emotions, would not show anger, etc.

Young men tended to act out their symptoms, got angry etc. They felt they were second class citizens because they did not merit a wife. They were forced into the outside world which they had been taught was evil, etc. In their community, they could not compete with the older and more established men for wives. They had been told if they were good and faithful that they would be given a wife, and when this did not happen, they felt cheated. Men were reluctant to seek treatment because this was seen as a weakness in their community and it took time to build trust that the treatment was only to help them overcome specific obstacles.

Adolescents is a time of identity formation. It is very important to ask questions during this time of their life because asking questions is seen as rebellious. They are taught if they think and feel something other than what the prophet says then they are wrong. This teaches them to lose trust in what they think and feel as an individual.

Because the adolescent brain is not fully formed, it is difficult to exercise judgement, plan, project into the future, etc Since these young people had a specific controlling environment, it was more difficult to develop these skills in these individuals.

From scans of pre-frontal cortex, which controls higher executive function, is not fully formed until late 20s. This makes it unfair for a young person to make long term decisions, like who they are going to marry. They do not have the physical capacity. They are emotionally and intellectually unprepared to make these decisions so they become a passive element. Similar problems happen for the young men, however, they often have mechanical or construction skills which make it easier to get by in outside world if they leave.

He refers to sexual grooming - the manner in which relationships are built gradually, in terms of increasing trust and dependance in a relationship that is considered as unique and special. This includes separating her from her support system.

Because of the affection and closeness that develops and the victim craves, when the relationship turns sexual, the woman believes that she has given consent and internalizes fear, shame and guilt.

When the older man is a church leader, for her, disobeying him becomes analogous to disobeying God. If she does not feel good about the relationship, she is told to repent of her sins and align her thinking with the priesthood leaders. The FLDS seems particularly strong in the degree of sexual grooming.

There is much overlap between polygamy victims and PTSD survivors. There is a greater need for feelings of safety (in some cases women are pursued), attachment issues are severe because they were taught that the outside world is evil life skills training is lacking and because of the degree of indoctrination it is very difficult to develop new ways of thinking.

Leaving the polygamous community is done in stages. The first step is one of geography - is it possible for her to slip away and get out. She also needs a place to go - some kind of support system until she finds a way to survive.

Then needs to find a way to survive in the new community - which she has been taught to fear. financial issues, etc.

Then there are legal issues, custody etc. and she does not have money while he does.

The main difference between women and men is the presence of children with the women. It is easier for men, especially if they have a place to stay while they get their feet on the ground.

In some cases, fathers are determined by the church leader as not being worthy to have a family. His family is taken from him and given to another man and he is then expelled from the community.

Dr. Davies has accused Dr. Beall of being biased, not taking cultural and religious sensitivities into account and breaking APA professional guidelines.

Dr. Beal had not been aware of FLDS practices and teachings prior to seeing these patients from the polygamous communities in his practice. Therefore he just treated them as patients who needed help. Dr. Davies accuses Beall of bias with the term “polygamy survivor”. He uses this term because their situations are unique because in opposition to incredible indoctrination, pressure, conditioning, etc. they still leave the community. Most importantly, they are taught will lose their salvation if they leave. Nothing is more important than that.

It was significant that affidavits that Dr. Beal has read that are before this court are consistent with this past experience with polygamy survivors.


Cross-ex by Robert Wickett, Attorney for the FLDS

What is your definition of polygamy?
More than one wife with one man. Polygyny. He has used other terms, like plural marriage, etc. in working with the FLDS patients but tends to use polygamy because it is most commonly understood.

Are you familiar with health insurance portability act in the US (HIPA)? HIPA federal statute that in part provides for privacy and confidentially rights of patients that go to doctors and psychologists. Absent of a detailed authorization form, he cannot disclose psychotherapy symptoms or notes.

His work includes the records of 32 people, 8 of these came from other Mormon fundamentalist groups. His work primarily comes from the records from 16 men and 8 women from FLDS. There was some additional people from other fundamentalist groups who had been treated prior to his 2005 paper.

From his observations of these people, he formed the basis of his opinion. In preparing the two affidavits and opinion for this court, did he rely upon his clinical notes from these patients? No.

Did you obtain consent from these people to use their information - No, and it was not directly used.

From the information that you reported, did it not come from the notes from these cases?

No, because of the repetition of themes, he has developed his own ideas about what goes on in these groups.

While he cannot refer to the notes, due to confidentiality and legal concerns, he has provided statements in his work that ultimately came from his clinical notes. For example, in his affidavit, he states that about 30% of the women he treated were married before 17. Wicket further asked about the statement that Dr. Beall had used that indicated that women had fled polygamy to save their children, he argued that the women were actually fleeing abuse rather than fleeing polygamy per se.

Beall argued that this would be too narrow, because the environment itself; including being watched by sister wives, religious leaders, etc. and being ostracized for speaking out.

W: The only way to determine the accuracy of what you have said, or of your synthesis of information, is to gain access to the original statements which we do not have. Further, because of the fact that there are only 6 women from the FLDS group, it may be possible to determine who these women might be.

Did he consider that these notes might be requested by the courts? Did he know that there was a risk that the records might be ordered by the courts?

Dr Beall stated that the women who came to him for help felt that this was a matter of life or death. If they were tracked down, they could be killed. He stated that he would never release this information to the court because of his obligation to protect them.

Mr Wicket: In your conclusions you have made generalizations about the FLDS community. Why have not more women left?

B: The FLDS system is a caste system. There is an inner circle who enjoy the advantages and many others who suffer. There are in reality two communities.

Mr. Wickett: Are the 22 people who came to you for treatment, were they from the outer circle of the community?
B:Yes.

W: How many of the young men came from the diversity foundation?
B: all but 2.

W: Diversity Foundation is headed by a Mr Fisher. Were you aware that he is involved in several major litigations against the FLDS in the US?
B: No.

W: How many people came through referrals from Tapestry?
B: None of the males and some of the females.

W: Did the Diversity Foundation pay for the treatment for some of the young men?
B: Diversity Foundation paid for the treatment of some patients, Yes.

W: How much funding did you receive from the Diversity Foundation for these treatments?
B: Don’t recall.

W: From Texas Transcripts, where you recently testified in another case, you stated that Diversity paid $19K for treatment. Is this correct?
B: yes

W: Have you performed any evaluations from people who are still in the FLDS?
B: No

W: Since all of these people had left the FLDS, is there any chance that this testimony is biased?
B: Yes - and this has been noted. Their experience obviously is not reflective of the people who are happy within the FLDS (especially in terms of those who form the elite).

W: You treated 16 young men you came to you, 11 of them were given a diagnosis of PTSD.
B: How did you come up with that number?

W: From a series of transcripts (which were then submitted to Justice Bauman). Going to a transcript from March 2010 in a case called State of Texas v (Merrill Jessop?). References referring to are on page 14,

Mr. Hudson: What are the effect on men in that community.
A. It was the same as the women except the men exhibited more anger.
...
Q. How many of the 16 men exhibited symptoms of PTSD?
A. 11 of the 16 men were diagnosed with symptoms of PTSD.”

W: Do you remember giving those answers?
B: No

W: Do you think you gave those answers at that time?
B: I think this is true. I had appeared in 5 cases and it is difficult to remember specific questions from specific cases.

W: Is if fair to say that all or part of the men had been physically abused?
B: No

B: In PTSD, there is usually a significant identifiable assult or incident. In FLDS, there is not a specific event, but rather a general climate that one is not safe. It is necessary to push under consciousness difficult events because it is not appropriate to show emotions. All of these people explained a climate that was conducive to PSTD. WItnesses are aware of violence against others, even if they do not experience this directly, it has a similar effect as violence against self. etc.

W: To my specific question - return to manuscript pg. 15, Read from manuscript and do you recall these questions and answers? Reading from transcript - B had answered that 11 of the 16 who had PSTD had suffered physical or sexual abuse.

B: On hearing manuscript, remembered making these statements.

W; Relating to the women how many suffered abuse (physical and sexual)
B: This is difficult to answer because unwanted sex can feel like physical abuse even though the courts do not define it that way. In my experience, many of these women experienced unwanted sex and these were very intrusive experiences.

W: Of the 6 women who exhibited PTSD and said that they were abused - you would ask them their history etc.

B: I would ask them some sentence that would seem non threatening at first and the rest was a check-list.

W: Did you use hypnosis on any of these patients. For example, do you consider it questionable to use hypnosis for recovered memories?
B: I don;t consider it questionable, I consider it unethical

W; Are you familiar with the book by Brent Jeffs? Are you familiar with what is written there? I trust that you cannot comment on this because of the confidentiality of your patient.

B: No, this is not my answer, he was not my patient

W: Then you won’t mind if I read from this book that is submitted as evidence in this case. (He submitted book by Jeffs to Judge Bauman). He then read 2 passages in the book where Jeffs stated that he had been treated twice by Dr. Beal using hypnosis. Would you like to see this book?
B: No - I believe your reading is correct but this is not my recollection.

W: You have said that adolescents are not able to make informed decisions because of the formation of their brains.
Yes
W: Do you believe the adults in the FLDS have the ability to make informed decisions?
B: Yes, but they are affected by their strong conditioning and some are more or less able to make decisions.

W; In all major faiths, religious leaders make statements that cannot be proven empirically. Is this not true?
B: Yes:
W: For example, in the LDS faith - you are LDS are you not?
B: yes
W: There are many common beliefs between the LDS and FLDS Faiths, are there not?
B:Yes
W: Including a belief in a Prophet who receives revelations directly from God, etc?
B: yes, however, in the FLDS faith the revelations are much more centralized to the Prophet. There is more room for personal revelation in the LDS church. In the LDS church, the prophet receives revelations for the entire church, not individual members.
W; But the Prophet is the only one authorized to receive revelations for the entire body of the church (reads from the previous trial transcript where Dr. Beall had stated this).
B: (generally seemed to reluctantly agree )

W: Between 1830 and 1900, the LDS Church and its’ members were threatened, persecuted, attacked by armies and mobs, driven from state to state, disenfranchised and legally prosecuted for the practice of Polygamy. Over a thousand men, along with many women, were arrested and their leaders were pursued and forced into hiding. This did not stop until the LDS Church was dissolved and its’ assets were seized - and then the Prophet called for an end to the practice to save the church. Are you aware of this?
B: Yes

W: Since the LDS church officially ended polygamy, more than 100 years ago, the fundamentalist Mormons have continued the practice of polygamy in the face of increasingly harsh criminalization, persecution, raids, legal prosecutions, arrests, imprisonment and seizure of assets. Are you aware of this?
B: Yes

W: Do you believe that continued criminal prohibition will ever be effective in ending the practice of Mormon polygamy?
B: I don’t know

W: Women from the FLDS church have a more difficult time in getting necessary support from outside agencies and have more difficulties escaping from from abuse because polygamous women are often more isolated, separated from the outside world, have less access to resources, less money, more difficulty with custody, etc. Do you agree?
B: confirms

W: Would it not be easier for them if polygamy were de-criminalized?
B: No opinion on this.

W: ends questioning

Court adjourns for lunch.



BCCLA (BC Civil Liberties - Monique ?)

M: Your opinion is based primarily on clinical experience?
B: Correct.

Information comes from his experience in working with people who had left the community. Some of the information came from interviews with people in Colorado city, who had not left the community, but this did not form the basis of his work.

In talking with women, three conversations were with women who were together and three others were separate.

When you testified in texas, this evidence was based on child sex abuse. This was not to do with consenting adults.
B: Correct

M: With respect to the multi-axial diagnosis, is the principle diagnosis PTSD?
B: This is principle but not primary

M: Would you say that you are very familiar with PS?4.?
B: In stress disorders.

M: Would you agree that primary diagnosis in under axis 1, which is PSDM is this not primary?
B: correct.

M: PTSD is a result of extreme stressors, such a re-experiencing and intrusive memories that exist for a period of time. Identification of the significant events is important for treatment.
B: Does not agree entirely

M: Would you say the event is primary to the symptom
B: There are often more than one event- in complex cases

M: Once events are identified, will this have a direct impact on treatment?
B: In some cases, people have sommatic systems where they do not know the event that triggered the symptom. This is why not to use hypnosis to try and recover the memory because it simply may not be remembered. Better to treat the symptoms.

M: Did some of the patients come to you who had been threatened with violence, or loved ones had been threatened with violence.
B: Yes

M: Have you treated any teenage girls who were victims of abuse. Are they part of the sample population?
B: I did not treat them directly, but they are part of my awareness because my colleagues treated them. They had bearing on my cases because they were children of the people I was treating.

BCTF: (BC Teachers Federation) Cross-examine relative to education.

BCTF: Have you experienced any of the FLDS private schools?
B: Yes, I have visited the FLDS Alta Academy in Salt Lake City.
BCTF: From what you observed, how would you compare education in this school to education available in public schools?
B: Education in polygamous community is inferior due to restrictions on the educational material and lack of qualifications among the teachers. Does the teachers experience come from education in public school, or private school, etc. In his experience comes from Alta, FLDS school in Salt Lake. There was one hour per day that related to priesthood history, etc. During the remainder of the day, there was more subtle re-enforcement of religion.

Do you have a Masters in Education?
B: yes

Are you aware of the need for critical thinking training in education?
B: yes

Do you feel that the people you met from FLDS background had been sufficiently trained in critical thinking to make important decisions?

B: No, I do not believe so.

(2:20 PM) - No more witnesses

Schedule moved to arranging schedules for the remainder of the hearing.

AG Canada requests 4 weeks to prepare closing submissions to be able to incorporate all the evidence - especially relating to testimony that is only being heard now. Quite frankly to start the middle of February with closing submissions will be a significant burden.

Spring break becomes a major scheduling problem if time goes later?

No one booked for Monday: Tuesday Dr. Woo.
Wednesday: Mr. Kendall
Thursday/Friday: Dr. Heinrich

Court adjourned until Tuesday, December 7